Been spearmentin'

[Bill Calfee]

Been spearmentin'


CYA friends:


I've been doing some spearmentin' and figuring today.


I'm going to make a "temporary" manual re-set trigger out of the trigger in my new MD-PAS pistol.


I say temporary, because I've not worked out how to make a permanent re-set lever/linkage system for it, yet.


Here's a picture of the trigger in my pistol showing the third lever re-turn spring, in the back of the housing.



Now, here's a doodle of how I'm going to make my temporary manual re-set system.

Since the stock is open exposing the bottom of the trigger housing, I'm simply going to remove the third lever re-set spring, and replace it with a hook and wire with a little barrel shaped knob that I can pull to re-set the trigger.


Very simple and easy to do.





Here you can see the cutout in the bottom of the stock exposing the bottom of the trigger housing.





______________________


CYA friends:


I've got a wonderful trigger in my new MD-PAS pistol.....


And one of the greatest benefits it has, is the reduced amount of upward pressure by the transfer bar against the bottom of the cocking piece, compared to other triggers.


The ultimate way to solve this upward pressure issue, of course, is with a manual re-set trigger which has zero upward pressure.


Your friend, Bill Calfee

[Deveng]

Hi Bill

Would there not be 2 types of upwards pressure / force's

1) Static force

2) Dynamic force

Static force is just what is written on the tin, a force from when everything is still such as the re-set spring (soon to be removed)

Dynamic force is the reaction force pushing up on the cocking piece from accelerating the transfer bar in a downward direction during firing (Remington style)

The more mass and distance plus increasing the speed of trigger components that has to move during firing will increase the upward force on the cocking piece.

Without doing any math I would imagine this reaction force to be quiet a bit.

Regards
Graham

[Bill Calfee]

Hi Bill

Would there not be 2 types of upwards pressure / force's

1) Static force

2) Dynamic force

Static force is just what is written on the tin, a force from when everything is still such as the re-set spring (soon to be removed)

Dynamic force is the reaction force pushing up on the cocking piece from accelerating the transfer bar in a downward direction during firing (Remington style)

The more mass and distance plus increasing the speed of trigger components that has to move during firing will increase the upward force on the cocking piece.

Without doing any math I would imagine this reaction force to be quiet a bit.

Regards
Graham

_____________________


Friend Deveng:


I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here.......in bold orange.



Are you talking about the upward pressure exerted by the third lever return spring, when the action is at battery?


Your friend, BC

[Deveng]

Hi Bill

Yes the static force in itself has 2 parts to it

1) The third leaver return spring that makes the third leaver push up onto the transfer bar that pushes up on the cocking piece, this is upwards pressure.

2) The firing pin spring compressed up resulting in an upwards pressure on the cocking piece because of the angle engagement while at battery.


Mister T on another site posted a video clip of a trigger that can be described as "WOW"

But interesting also in the first clip you can see with the action that was used the bolt and handle moving up and down when dry firing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxHettzU6uo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdzqQzeGUTQ

Regards
Graham

[Bill Calfee]

Hi Bill

Yes the static force in itself has 2 parts to it

1) The third leaver return spring that makes the third leaver push up onto the transfer bar that pushes up on the cocking piece, this is upwards pressure.

2) The firing pin spring compressed up resulting in an upwards pressure on the cocking piece because of the angle engagement while at battery.


Mister T on another site posted a video clip of a trigger that can be described as "WOW"

But interesting also in the first clip you can see with the action that was used the bolt and handle moving up and down when dry firing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxHettzU6uo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdzqQzeGUTQ

Regards
Graham

__________________________________________


Friend Deveng:


You're very observant.....


That was the first thing that caught my eye when I watched the movie clip.

________________________



I'm not sure the folks at FF intended it, but, their little movie clip is the best visual representation of what we have to deal with when trying to make accuracy with the Remington pattern trigger, that I believe I've ever seen.


And especially SAP ignition actions.


(MD-PAS actions also have to deal with these issues, don't get me wrong.)



But the complicated nature of SAP ignition simply magnifies the issues of the Remington pattern trigger, compared to the simplicity of MD-PAS ignition.


This is why MD-PAS ignition, even when dealing with the Remington pattern trigger, produces better consistency.


Friend Deveng, anyone truly interested in understanding the issues involved with the Remington pattern trigger, should watch this little movie clip over and over.


Your friend, BC


_________________________


PS:


The bolt handle jumping is most obvious, but even more profound is the interaction between the bolt body, bolt shroud and cocking piece.


When the trigger sear falls, the entire bolt body drops down, which kicks the bolt handle up, followed by the cocking piece rattling inside of the bolt shroud.

[Bill Calfee]

I'm going to wait on making my pistol trigger manual reset.


CYA friends:


I got all cited about temporarily converting my new MD-PAS triple pistol trigger to manual reset, and forgot that I'm trying to gum up the trigger to see how it will reset, in that state...


It needs to be able to reset as gummed up as it takes to cause the B&A to fail to reset by being gummed up with evaporated bore cleaning solvent.


Getting a trigger for the new MD-PAS triple pistols is way more important, for the time being.


Your friend, BC

_________________


I'm going to wait to do this.......I've got to complete my gummed up spearment first.




_______________________



PS:


I just thought of something........


I forgot to comment on the new FF trigger that was depicted in the little movie friend Deveng posted.


(I was so impressed by the visual of the issues with Remington pattern triggers that I forgot to comment about the trigger demonstration itself)



Anyway, to say that demonstration was amazing would be an understatement.




Now, would I want a trigger that requires zero finger pressure to cause it to fire?


Even if it were fool proof safe?


In reality I'm not sure........


I'd have to develop a new finger control system, of some sort, especially shooting a pistol.


___________________________



Oh by the way, speaking of the trigger being hard to slap fire......safe.


I noticed they were closing the breech bolt fairly gingerly.....



When I'm on a run, slinging with my pistol, I ain't working the breech bolt gingerly.......


When I tested my new pistol trigger for potential slap fire, I slammed the breech bolt forward and down, hard, just like I've caught myself doing during a match.


If this new trigger will pass that kind of a slap fire test, and maintain a zero pressure pull, them fellers have got something.


___________________



CYA friends, here's what would interest me more about the new FF trigger:


How much upward pressure does the transfer bar apply to the bottom of the cocking piece, as the firing pin is moving forward to produce ignition?



There's a couple of reasons why I'd be interested in knowing.



I've run tests on the amount of upward pressure that the three, currently popular, Remington pattern triggers apply to the bottom of the cocking piece.


1. The least amount is applied by the B&A


2. Next comes the Jewell


3. With the FF applying the most upward pressure of the three.


(By the way, the FF can be modified to equal the B&A, which I and others have done.)



Anyway, it would be interesting to know how much upward this new FF applies.



_________________________




CYA friends, trigger makers have been in a race for the lightness of pull title, starting with the Jewel....



I personally would love to see some trigger maker tackle the upward pressure issue.....which is much more important to me in trying to advance rimfire accuracy.



By the way, one of the main goals of the new DiOrio trigger, is to eliminate as much upward pressure as possible...


This is the reason I'm running my gummed up tests........bc

[404tbang]

I'm going to wait on making my pistol trigger manual reset.


CYA friends:


I got all cited about temporarily converting my new MD-PAS triple pistol trigger to manual reset, and forgot that I'm trying to gum up the trigger to see how it will reset, in that state...


It needs to be able to reset as gummed up as it takes to cause the B&A to fail to reset by being gummed up with evaporated bore cleaning solvent.


Getting a trigger for the new MD-PAS triple pistols is way more important, for the time being.


Your friend, BC

_________________


I'm going to wait to do this.......I've got to complete my gummed up spearment first.




_______________________



PS:


I just thought of something........


I forgot to comment on the new FF trigger that was depicted in the little movie friend Deveng posted.


(I was so impressed by the visual of the issues with Remington pattern triggers that I forgot to comment about the trigger demonstration itself)



Anyway, to say that demonstration was amazing would be an understatement.




Now, would I want a trigger that requires zero finger pressure to cause it to fire?


Even if it were fool proof safe?


In reality I'm not sure........


I'd have to develop a new finger control system, of some sort, especially shooting a pistol.


___________________________



Oh by the way, speaking of the trigger being hard to slap fire......safe.


I noticed they were closing the breech bolt fairly gingerly.....



When I'm on a run, slinging with my pistol, I ain't working the breech bolt gingerly.......


When I tested my new pistol trigger for potential slap fire, I slammed the breech bolt forward and down, hard, just like I've caught myself doing during a match.


If this new trigger will pass that kind of a slap fire test, and maintain a zero pressure pull, them fellers have got something.


___________________



CYA friends, here's what would interest me more about the new FF trigger:


How much upward pressure does the transfer bar apply to the bottom of the cocking piece, as the firing pin is moving forward to produce ignition?



There's a couple of reasons why I'd be interested in knowing.



I've run tests on the amount of upward pressure that the three, currently popular, Remington pattern triggers apply to the bottom of the cocking piece.


1. The least amount is applied by the B&A


2. Next comes the Jewell


3. With the FF applying the most upward pressure of the three.


(By the way, the FF can be modified to equal the B&A, which I and others have done.)



Anyway, it would be interesting to know how much upward this new FF applies.



_________________________




CYA friends, trigger makers have been in a race for the lightness of pull title, starting with the Jewel....



I personally would love to see some trigger maker tackle the upward pressure issue.....which is much more important to me in trying to advance rimfire accuracy.



By the way, one of the main goals of the new DiOrio trigger, is to eliminate as much upward pressure as possible...


This is the reason I'm running my gummed up tests........bc

Howdy Bill,
I'm likely saying something silly...........but wouldn't a ninety degree trigger sear solve all of these issues, if someone developed it for current actions?

And, if Anthony DiOrio found a way to do a trigger like that, would that likely give him a competitive advantage on pure accuracy actions?

Take care,

Greg

[Bill Calfee]

Howdy Bill,
I'm likely saying something silly...........but wouldn't a ninety degree trigger sear solve all of these issues, if someone developed it for current actions?

And, if Anthony DiOrio found a way to do a trigger like that, would that likely give him a competitive advantage on pure accuracy actions?

Take care,

Greg

____________________


Friend 404tbang:


The accuracy world would be much better off today, if 50 years ago we'd invested as much time in vertical interface triggers as we did in the Remington pattern trigger.


So we're kinda stuck with the Remington pattern trigger design.



Greg, the one area we have left, that will benefit Remington pattern triggers, is to remove all of the upward pressure on the bottom of the cocking piece possible.


Anthony DiOrio is working at this with his new triggers.


And the ultimate way to accomplish this, is with manual reset triggers..


Your friend, BC