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Thread: Been working on my 40-X pistol......

  1. #1

    Been working on my 40-X pistol......

    Been working on my 40-X pistol......


    CYA friends:


    I've been working on my 40-X pistol some today...


    I went ahead and bobbed off the tang and re-shaped it.....


    I want the overall length and the distance between the front and rear bedding screws, and their locations, to be exactly the same as a XP-22.


    This so it will fit existing stocks, including a modified factory stock should I ever get up the nerve to modify another......way too much work..


    Although, man, do they ever work........


    Your friend, BC



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    I've got a long .125" drill bit passing through the rear trigger pin hole of each action......


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    I shaped the tang slightly different from the XP, and it fits the factory stock quite well shaped like this....


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    ________________________________

    If I decided to go with a manual re-set trigger I'll have to mill the right side of the tang to the shape of the XP's.....

    But I'm still thinking............I like the looks of it like it is.......
    Last edited by Bill Calfee; 08-11-2018 at 07:01 AM.

  2. #2

    Getting ready to move the front bedding screw hole in my 40-X

    Getting ready to move the front bedding screw hole in my 40-X


    CYA friends:


    Before I do anything else I'm going to move the front bedding screw hole in my 40-X action rearward 1/2 hole width, and drill the hole for the rear bedding screw......

    I want these two new bedding screw holes to be in the exact same location and be the exact same hole spacing as a XP-22.


    The rear bedding screw of the XP goes in from the top of the action and is threaded into a stock bushing....instead of the action being threaded and the screw coming in from the bottom like in conventional bedding.


    Although, I've done a few XP's with the rear screw coming in from the bottom and threaded into the action.....


    So I've got a decision to make on my 40-X pistol:


    Do I bring the screw in from the top, like a factory XP, or do I tap the rear hole in the action and bring the screw in from the bottom?



    If I bring the screw in from the top, which I'm leaning toward doing, I'll have to have an access hole in the rear receiver ring so an Allen wrench or screwdriver can have access to the screw......

    I'm cited....

    Your friend, BC

    _________________________




    _________________________________


    Last edited by Bill Calfee; 08-11-2018 at 01:36 PM.

  3. #3

    Tool making time...

    Tool making time...

    CYA friends:


    I'm getting ready to move the front bedding screw hole in the 40-X action rearward 1/2 hole diameter......

    I annealed a 1/4 x 28 bolt today so it will be closer to the hardness of the action......since the new hole location will center half on the action and half on the filler screw for the old hole.

    And I've decided to use a 3/16 x 32 bolt instead of the 1/4 x 28........

    By doing this it will leave more of the circumference of the filler screw.........

    I could probably get by with a 1/4 x 28 screw, but I'll probably be more comfortable with the 3/16 x32........


    Although, after I drill the 3/16ths hole, before I remove the action from the milling machine I'll examine the relationship with the filler screw, and may go ahead a drill for a 1/4 x 28.......depends on what it looks like at that time....


    Either way, if I ever get up the gumption to build another factory stock and use this 40-X action in it, I'll need to have a 27/64ths counter bore centered on the new hole.

    This counter bore needs to be as deep as the thickness of one of the nylon washers that Remington uses to properly space the action from the front stock bushing.

    And I do not have a 27/64ths end mill.....

    So my next job is to make one, with a 1/2" diameter shank to fit the collet in my mill.


    I'm probably going to use a H&S stock, and for that I don't need this 27/64ths counter bore......

    But should I ever make up a factory stock, which I would really prefer, then I'll need the counter bore for the nylon washer.


    Not all XP 22's have one of the nylon washers between the action and front stock bushing, but, the stock bushing itself is 27/64ths in diameter, and flat on top, so the action needs the counter bore at the front screw hole for the bushing to properly fit, and rest square with the action.

    I'll take a picture when I get it done so you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.


    Your friend, BC


    ______________________


    In this picture you can see the counter bore in the XP action, right, which is half hidden by the pocket ruler.

    _____________________________



    Last edited by Bill Calfee; 08-12-2018 at 06:25 AM.

  4. #4

    Trigger linkage

    Mr. Calfee,

    Does the trigger setup you use for these pistols have a slight amount of adjustment to make up for differences between actions in the trigger location(pins) vs action face/recoil lug location? I know since you are cutting so much off of your 40x action face that you can make this dimension whatever it needs to be to make the linkage correct, but I can see where xp actions could vary a few thousandths in this dimension and really get everything out of whack.

    Also are you going to PAS this 40x?

    Tad

  5. #5

    Friend Tad E

    Quote Originally Posted by Tad Earhart View Post
    Mr. Calfee,

    Does the trigger setup you use for these pistols have a slight amount of adjustment to make up for differences between actions in the trigger location(pins) vs action face/recoil lug location? I know since you are cutting so much off of your 40x action face that you can make this dimension whatever it needs to be to make the linkage correct, but I can see where xp actions could vary a few thousandths in this dimension and really get everything out of whack.

    Also are you going to PAS this 40x?

    Tad
    ___________________


    Friend Tad E:


    You've asked a most interesting question......

    Actually, you've hit on a subject that could solve the center grip, trigger linkage issue for custom actions.

    Actually, it could solve a couple of issues for all custom RFBR actions.



    Tad, the world of center fire bench rest went to glue-ins back in the early 70's.......


    At first folks drilled access holes in the stocks so as to drive out the two trigger pins, since a lot of center fire BR guns used the Remington actions.


    So custom center fire action makers started using trigger hangers, which made it much easier to remove the trigger from glue-ins.


    The art of timing triggers did not come into existence, widely, until recently..........


    ___________________________



    We do very few glue-ins in RFBR, and none with pistols, so a trigger hanger is not required.


    I'm glad you brought this subject up.....


    Paul Tolvstad could solve a big part of the trigger linkage issues, if the actions he produces used pinned triggers, no hanger.


    Now I'm getting really cited here......


    Tad, a pinned trigger can be timed in every way that a trigger in a hanger can be timed.....


    If timing is needed in the pinned system, it is a little more involved, but a pinned trigger can be timed as efficiently as one in a hanger.


    A good portion of my XP's have had the triggers timed.....and there's no hangers in them, of course.



    We really do not need trigger hangers for non glue-in bedding.....


    And we most certainly would not need one in a custom pistol action using the center grip stock.

    ___________________________


    I'm glad you brought this subject up......cause there's more....


    Tad, think about this:

    The lower the cocking piece extends from the bottom of the breech bolt, the greater the upward pressure to the internals of the firing pin/breech bolt, and, the upward pressure of the breech bolt against the rear receiver ring, caused by the law of fulcrums..

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    We really do not need trigger hangers for bolted in bedding, and especially not for center grip pistols.

    Tad, the world of RFBR we live in today has come to accept trigger hangers as "just the way it's done"....

    No one asks why we use trigger hangers, it's just the way it's done...


    We absolutely do not need trigger hangers.......

    As a matter of fact, we could lighten the load on the firing pin internals without a hanger....



    ________________________


    When I have time I'll explain how a pinned trigger can be completely adjusted in every fashion that a trigger in a carrier can, plus some of the upward pressure on the breech bolt internals is eliminated by a pinned trigger...


    Your friend, BC



    ____________________


    PS: I'm debating on whether to PAS this 40-X or not.......


    If there were no prospect of getting a MD-PAS triple from Paul some day, I would PAS it........


    One additional thing....

    I'm not advocating doing away with trigger hangers on custom rifle actions....they do make trigger timing easier...


    But for a custom action for a center grip pistol, man, doing away with that hanger would simplify the trigger linkage problem 10 fold........

    Last edited by Bill Calfee; 08-12-2018 at 05:59 PM.

  6. #6

    a bipod question

    Hi Bill,
    do you think the location of the bipod on your pistols (or any gun) affects their accuracy?
    Thanks for posting the photos of your 40x build, they really clear things up for us rookies.

  7. #7

    Friend karls42

    Quote Originally Posted by karls42 View Post
    Hi Bill,
    do you think the location of the bipod on your pistols (or any gun) affects their accuracy?
    Thanks for posting the photos of your 40x build, they really clear things up for us rookies.
    __________________________


    Friend karls42:


    You've asked a question that I don't have a good answer for.


    Back when I owned my #9 pistol, now owned by Rob Propst, and since it used the H&S stock, which is extremely stiff, I made up an extended rail for the bottom of the fore end that placed the bi-pod legs 4 inches further forward.


    I figured that spreading the load further apart, between the sand bag at the pistol grip and the bi-pod, might help.....

    It didn't.


    Before I settled on the style of stock for my first XP bench pistol, I tried every which way you can imagine....

    Rear grip shot off of a sand bag at the pistol grip, and the fore end resting on a standard front rest.

    Center grip shot the same way.

    Rear grip shot off a bi-pod instead of a regular front rest.

    And finally the center grip shot off of a sand bag at the grip, and a bi-pod on the fore end......


    The last way shot the best, and that's the way I've made them ever since.


    Exactly why the center grip, shot with a sand bag under the grip and a bi-pod on the fore end, shoots the best, I do not know.


    ________________________


    It would be so simple if a rear grip shot best, then one could use any standard trigger....


    But for whatever reason(s), the center grip with a bi-pod on the fore end shoots the best...

    Which means a linkage trigger system.


    Your friend, BC


    ______________________________

    PS:

    For whatever reason(s), this configuration works best...

    _______________________________




    _________________________________


    Here's Donna Brown shooting her pistol, her husband Ray's pistol is on the bench to the left.

    Her pistol has a tiny .775" diameter barrel on it, yet she won a target at the ARA St Louis NATIONAL with it the first year she got it, with something on the order of 140 shooters attending.....

    These pistols shoot disproportionately better than they have any right to.

    ________________________________



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    There's something else so neat about these pistols...

    Everything, pistol, ammo, sand bag and all can be carried in a canvas AR-15 bag, which is the way I carried mine all the years I competed......just threw it behind the seat of the old truck....

    No rests, no hassles, no need for a cart to carry everything up and down the firing line at the big ranges.

    __________________________________
    Last edited by Bill Calfee; 08-13-2018 at 06:31 AM.

  8. #8

    Do another factory XP stock.......maybe

    Do another factory XP stock.......maybe


    CYA friends:


    Since I'm going to all the trouble to duplicate the 27/64ths counter bore in the front bedding screw of an XP action, in case I ever decided to put this 40-X in a modified factory XP stock, I've been psyching myself up to go ahead and modify a factory XP stock.....


    I ain't completely psyched myself up to do it yet, as I dread the thought.......they are a big hassle to do....


    But I love the factory stock, because the bedding is absolutely foolproof.


    There is no bedding in the factory XP stock, in the conventional sense.


    __________________________


    I'm now ready to move the front bedding screw hole in my 40-X rearward 1/2 hole........


    Three things have to be perfect for this 40-X to fit a factory stock.....


    The distance between the trigger pins and the face of the action has to duplicate the XP exactly....

    The spacing between the front and rear bedding screw holes have to duplicate the XP exactly, too....

    And, the distance between the front bedding screw and the face of the action has to duplicate the XP exactly.


    ______________________


    To put this 40-X in something like the H&S stock, or a McMillan, like Mary's #9, the only thing that has to absolutely duplicate the XP is the distance between the trigger pin holes and the face of the action.


    For the trigger shoe of the linkage trigger to sit correctly, vertically, the above has to be exactly like the factory XP.


    If this distance is not perfect, the trigger shoe will sit cocked forward, or rearward, depending on which direction the above measurement is off.



    Moving this front hole 1/2 diameter rearward is going to be a challenge........


    If I can get this hole re-located, and the hole spacing perfect between the two bedding screws, I'm home free....


    The rest is just time consuming, basic machining.....


    Your friend, BC


    ______________________________

    I really want another factory stock....if I can psych myself up enough to do it...

    ___________________________________


    Last edited by Bill Calfee; 08-14-2018 at 08:26 AM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    DeLand, IL
    Posts
    136

    XP stocks

    Bill
    Quit talking about these things, LOL. I almost had talked myself into selling one of mine with the factory stock. Now I don’t know.
    The factory stock is a hassle. I started to get one ready for #61 and the two stocks I had were bad candidates. The 3rd one was on a centerfire XP I got in a trade from a local shooter who had cobbled a rechamber job. It could be used.
    I then decided to go with the HP stock, I still think that’s the easiest. It is more expensive but I don’t have your experience with factory.

    PS my shop work has slowed because of the heat. It is dry and hot the last two weeks.
    Jerry Halcomb
    Last edited by Jerry Halcomb; 08-14-2018 at 10:26 AM.

  10. #10

    I took the easy way out.....

    I took the easy way out.....


    CYA friends:

    I need a way to counter bore the front bedding screw on my 40-X pistol, so as to hold one of the nylon washers Remington uses in their XP factory stock.....

    The problem is, the counter bore is 27/64ths......and I do not have an end mill that diameter....

    Plus, I must have a half inch shank on the end mill....


    ______________________________


    I intended to set up a piece of 1/2" carbon drill rod and make up a 27/64ths end mill......a lot of work....


    So I took the lazy way out....


    I took a worn out two flute, 1/2" end mill, high speed steel that I could work with, and reduced it to 27/64ths as follows:


    1. I hand ground one flute so the 1/2" diameter was reduced to .461"......( remember, I need a finished size of .420")


    2. I then hand ground the other flute till the diameter was reduced to about .422".........( I didn't want to go too small here, or I'd have ruined the job...........I stoned the cutting edges of this worn out end mill at this point)


    3. I then set up a piece of round cold roll and counter bored a hole about the depth of the XP's...


    4. The diameter of that hole was .425"......which is great, not too small........


    5. I needed about .0025" off the OD of my new end mill.....so I dared not try to grind it, so I took a medium grit stone and stoned the OD till I reduced it about .0025" in diameter.



    6. I then cut a second test hole which was about .422".......


    7. So I stoned some more and this test hole wound up exactly .420" in diameter.......blind lucky.....Thank you LORD.


    So now I've got a way to put a perfect 27/64ths counter bore at the front bedding screw hole in my 40-X pistol.


    Your friend, BC

    ___________________________________


    Here's the steel round stock and the three test holes bored with my new end mill as I reduced its diameter.....


    Just to make certain, I then bored a couple holes in a piece of aluminum.......


    Steel cuts much more difficult than does aluminum, of course, and I'm most likely only cutting on one flute, which means I'm probably boring the counter-bores.........

    But the two test holes in the aluminum measure exactly the same as the one in steel......

    Which means the spindle bearings in my old 120 year old mill are pretty sound........


    I put a couple of the nylon washers in the counter bores.....

    ________________________________


    Optical illusion....it looks like the counter bore in the aluminum without a washer is larger in diameter than the one with the washer......both holes measure exactly .420".........




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    Here's a close-up of the end mill.......you can see how I simply hand ground the diameter down.....and as you can see I used a bunch of back rake on the periphery of the flutes.

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    One other thing......even though this two flute end mill will cut to center, that really isn't necessary since I will have the new bedding screw hole drilled in the 40-X before I counter bore it........I will counter bore the hole before I remove it from the mill, that way it will be perfectly centered with the hole and at right angles to it........
    Last edited by Bill Calfee; 08-14-2018 at 07:25 PM.

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