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Thread: Eley By the Numbers

  1. #1

    Eley By the Numbers

    I've read Bob Collins' Eley By the Numbers several times. I would probably read it again but don't know where to find it though I'm sure it's posted somewhere.

    But that leads me to my quest for various opinions. How much does velocity affect ammo accuracy assuming we're talking about match level ammo? If we make the assumption that posted velocities are correct, does it matter that much? If I recall Bob's article correctly he essentially said you need faster ammo in colder conditions. I think that's probably right because biathlon ammo is sometimes as high as 1099 fps. But I also remember somewhat the discussion of density altitude and the fact hat hotter humid air is thinner than colder less humid air. As I recall, reading the article gave me the impression of a "U" shaped curve in terms of velocity. Higher velocity was needed at low temps to allow it push through the dense air, but also needed at high temps to allow stability. Mid velocity somewhere in the middle.

    I don't know if that interpretation is right or not because it would seem, on the surface, that if higher speed ammo works better in cold temperature, then slower speed would work better in higher temperature.

    Eley is the only company I know of that posts the velocity and how accurate those velocities are I have no idea. But it seems to run no lower than 1030 and not much higher than 1080 until you get into the biathlon stuff. So, the first question is, does that 50 fps really make a difference at all in the typical temperature range of RFBR? The second is what is the optimum velocity range for what we generally shoot if it does make a difference. Personally I shoot most targets from about 70 degrees to about 90 degress F. The majority of those are in the high 80's and usually very humid. A posted 1056 fps has been my best ammo several times.

    I recently tested 12 lots of Eley. The temperature during testing ran from around 50-52 degrees F and the wind was certainly noticed. The best three lots that I tested were all posted at 1052 fps. Although two stood out, all three held true to what I consider the most important part of the Eley lot analyzer. Two are completely gone now. One was one of the best in terms of group size from the analyzer. For my rifle I would not have bought it but I think the group size from the analyzer sold it. The other that sold out was not the best in terms of group size on the analyzer but according to the analyzer did have one great attribute. I think it sold because it was tested. The one I chose was very similar to the one just mentioned with a little better grouping according to the analyzer. It was really a hard choice for me but I ultimately chose the one that shot the slightly smaller groups for me in the exact same conditions.

    I think to some extent we all second guess ammo choices. That's one reason I rarely buy a case of anything. But the one I chose is still sitting there with many boxes available. Kinda makes me worry, but not much. It seemed to be consistent in the hurricane we shot in Saturday even though I shot very low scores.

    What I really wonder is if ammo that is at the two extremes in velocity will shoot in changing weather conditions. I've had very good 1081 fps ammo that only shot when it was hot, when I was being told it was too fast for hot weather. I've had 1035 fps that shot very well in the cold and was great on a cool night but also shot very well in the heat and humidity.

    So does velocity really matter within the range we shoot given the ammo we shoot? Will ammo that tests very good remain true to that test when the temperature rises 40 degrees? I know it's all opinion, but all opinions are welcome.

  2. #2

    Eley by the Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by wsmallwood View Post
    I've read Bob Collins' Eley By the Numbers several times. I would probably read it again but don't know where to find it though I'm sure it's posted somewhere.

    But that leads me to my quest for various opinions. How much does velocity affect ammo accuracy assuming we're talking about match level ammo? If we make the assumption that posted velocities are correct, does it matter that much? If I recall Bob's article correctly he essentially said you need faster ammo in colder conditions. I think that's probably right because biathlon ammo is sometimes as high as 1099 fps. But I also remember somewhat the discussion of density altitude and the fact hat hotter humid air is thinner than colder less humid air. As I recall, reading the article gave me the impression of a "U" shaped curve in terms of velocity. Higher velocity was needed at low temps to allow it push through the dense air, but also needed at high temps to allow stability. Mid velocity somewhere in the middle.

    I don't know if that interpretation is right or not because it would seem, on the surface, that if higher speed ammo works better in cold temperature, then slower speed would work better in higher temperature.

    Eley is the only company I know of that posts the velocity and how accurate those velocities are I have no idea. But it seems to run no lower than 1030 and not much higher than 1080 until you get into the biathlon stuff. So, the first question is, does that 50 fps really make a difference at all in the typical temperature range of RFBR? The second is what is the optimum velocity range for what we generally shoot if it does make a difference. Personally I shoot most targets from about 70 degrees to about 90 degress F. The majority of those are in the high 80's and usually very humid. A posted 1056 fps has been my best ammo several times.

    I recently tested 12 lots of Eley. The temperature during testing ran from around 50-52 degrees F and the wind was certainly noticed. The best three lots that I tested were all posted at 1052 fps. Although two stood out, all three held true to what I consider the most important part of the Eley lot analyzer. Two are completely gone now. One was one of the best in terms of group size from the analyzer. For my rifle I would not have bought it but I think the group size from the analyzer sold it. The other that sold out was not the best in terms of group size on the analyzer but according to the analyzer did have one great attribute. I think it sold because it was tested. The one I chose was very similar to the one just mentioned with a little better grouping according to the analyzer. It was really a hard choice for me but I ultimately chose the one that shot the slightly smaller groups for me in the exact same conditions.

    I think to some extent we all second guess ammo choices. That's one reason I rarely buy a case of anything. But the one I chose is still sitting there with many boxes available. Kinda makes me worry, but not much. It seemed to be consistent in the hurricane we shot in Saturday even though I shot very low scores.

    What I really wonder is if ammo that is at the two extremes in velocity will shoot in changing weather conditions. I've had very good 1081 fps ammo that only shot when it was hot, when I was being told it was too fast for hot weather. I've had 1035 fps that shot very well in the cold and was great on a cool night but also shot very well in the heat and humidity.

    So does velocity really matter within the range we shoot given the ammo we shoot? Will ammo that tests very good remain true to that test when the temperature rises 40 degrees? I know it's all opinion, but all opinions are welcome.

    Hi Wally
    Try this

    http://www.22rf.com/articles/ByTheNumbers.html

  3. #3
    It got me there.

    What's your opinion Jeff. You're an avid ammo tester.

  4. #4

    Just my 2 cents worth, may not be worth that!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wsmallwood View Post
    It got me there.

    What's your opinion Jeff. You're an avid ammo tester.
    Proof for me....is in the pudding. TEST...TEST....TEST....how does it shoot in MY rifle.
    I have test, and purchase, multiple cases of 10X.....anywhere from 1053 to 1081.
    Four different speeds, three different Eley Machines (2 machine, 3 machine and 4 machine).
    I go to the line with everyone of these with me because I never know which one is going to shoot the best (hot or cold weather)......and they all have perform to my satisfaction...... indoors, outdoors and varying temperatures.
    Each of these ammo's will perform in all my rifles, although each one DOES have a specific rifle it likes best!

    Just my personal opinion (which is based solely upon my experiences) but I never consider the speed as a factor when I select ammo.
    Too many times (hot or cold weather) I've shot my 1053 ammo......good results, then grab a box of the 1079 or 1081 speed.....equally as good.

    Good luck
    Jeff

  5. #5

    Eley By the Numbers

    Wally,

    I've been told many times that the posted velocity on the box doesn't matter. My experience with higher velocities always seems to have the same outcome, it will be very accurate just like the lower velocity ammo but when you miss a wind condition you pay for it big time. Lost shots are magnified......

    GT

  6. #6
    It seems to be the general opinion that the velocity really doesn't matter that much. Paying for a lost shot on a higher velocity seems to make sense. Someone once equated it with driving fast in a high cross wind. The driver will notice it more for sure but I don't know if the required correction is the same over the same distance or not.

    I test using an ARA target. i always hang the target vertical testing, practice, or match. No real reason other than it's a hold over from BR-50 days. When I was testing I held on the upper right part of the square border surrounding the bull and printed just below that. I just happened to use a relatively higher velocity ammo on the fourth row of one card and a relatively lower velocity ammo on the fourth row of another. Not that either of those two were my choice but I can hold those cards together and look straight through them on all five rows including the two that varied significantly in velocity. Essentially, they all printed in the same place relative to the POA. It makes me wonder how accurate the posted velocity is and/or how much velocity change is required to actually significantly change POI.

    i agree with Jeff. Test, test, test. He tends to come around ever so often and prove to me it works anyway.

  7. #7
    Hurricane haha, that may be a understatement. Carrie told me she had shot so badly she started trying different hold offs in different conditions. Said some were more than a inch. In the beginning of us trying to find good ammo we fired all through chronograph and kept all data. The only thing I can say I feel sure of is some lots there was very little difference in speed. These have always been best whether fast or slow. I have no doubt that high or low speed has its time but we are just not good enough to make that call yet. Tad changed lot for his last card at the first oak ridge match and shot his best card of the match. I have good notes on that match. Think I will check speed of the two lots and might find some useful data. Todd

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