Interesting centerfire benchrest action

Bill Calfee

Gun Fool
Interesting centerfire benchrest action

CYA friends:

Yes, CYA is a rimfire accuracy advancement place........

And I've been away from CFBR for a lot of years now, and will never return.........

But, that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in centerfire accuracy advancement, too......

It's been interesting watching our centerfire friends stumble though their adaptation of my muzzle device, trying to re-invent the wheel, when everything about MD's has been laid at their feet........all they have to do is use it.......but, they have to do it "their way".....which means taking about 10 years longer than they needed to, to realize the full benefit of a muzzle device.....

One day down the road, our centerfire friends will look at one another, and in unison proclaim, "we could have done this 10 years ago, if we'd just listened"....

They'll get it right one day.............( In fairness, there are a few CFBR folks who are starting to get the picture)

_____________________________________


Now, something kinda, no very, interesting in the way of centerfire benchrest actions:

I know absolutely nothing about this new action, save for a few comments I read.....

But, as I understand it, this is a dual lug, now get this, horizontal lock-up action, and of course front lockup...


Since it will use the Remingtion pattern trigger, it will have to, what else is there, means that at least some portion of both locking lugs will be in contact while the action is "at battery"................

Unlike vertical lock-up actions which do not have equal locking lug contact with the action at battery...............( I'm sorry, but, if there's enough clearance for the breech bolt to function, then on a vertical lockup action both lugs never have equal contact, even with the "tricks" that folks have used over the years, including me, to try to make both lugs contact equally when the action is at battery)

So this horizontal lockup is going to be most interesting............

___________________________________


And something else from the comments I've read about this action:

A new fire control system?

Could we see some momentum dependency here, like our rimfire TCA's?

One reason that the Turbo Class Actions dominate rimfire benchrest, is their momentum dependent, PAS ignition system, and of course there is no PAS/SAP issue in centerfire, as they are lucky to have the firing pin strike in the middle of the case, and, against a nice, soft, brass anvil.....whereas we in rimfire have to deal with that steel anvil and the firing pin striking the rim.....

_______________________________________


This new centerfire benchrest action is most interesting.......that horizontal lockup is really most interesting.....

Your friend, Bill Calfee


PS: I'll be very interesting to hear Lynn's take on this new action, as he's a centerfire guy.....bc



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Been thinking...

Interesting centerfire benchrest action

CYA friends:

Yes, CYA is a rimfire accuracy advancement place........

And I've been away from CFBR for a lot of years now, and will never return.........

But, that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in centerfire accuracy advancement, too......

It's been interesting watching our centerfire friends stumble though their adaptation of my muzzle device, trying to re-invent the wheel, when everything about MD's has been laid at their feet........all they have to do is use it.......but, they have to do it "their way".....which means taking about 10 years longer than they needed to, to realize the full benefit of a muzzle device.....

One day down the road, our centerfire friends will look at one another, and in unison proclaim, "we could have done this 10 years ago, if we'd just listened"....

They'll get it right one day.............( In fairness, there are a few CFBR folks who are starting to get the picture)

_____________________________________


Now, something kinda, no very, interesting in the way of centerfire benchrest actions:

I know absolutely nothing about this new action, save for a few comments I read.....

But, as I understand it, this is a dual lug, now get this, horizontal lock-up action, and of course front lockup...


Since it will use the Remingtion pattern trigger, it will have to, what else is there, means that at least some portion of both locking lugs will be in contact while the action is "at battery"................

Unlike vertical lock-up actions which do not have equal locking lug contact with the action at battery...............( I'm sorry, but, if there's enough clearance for the breech bolt to function, then on a vertical lockup action both lugs never have equal contact, even with the "tricks" that folks have used over the years, including me, to try to make both lugs contact equally when the action is at battery)

So this horizontal lockup is going to be most interesting............

___________________________________


And something else from the comments I've read about this action:

A new fire control system?

Could we see some momentum dependency here, like our rimfire TCA's?

One reason that the Turbo Class Actions dominate rimfire benchrest, is their momentum dependent, PAS ignition system, and of course there is no PAS/SAP issue in centerfire, as they are lucky to have the firing pin strike in the middle of the case, and, against a nice, soft, brass anvil.....whereas we in rimfire have to deal with that steel anvil and the firing pin striking the rim.....

_______________________________________


This new centerfire benchrest action is most interesting.......that horizontal lockup is really most interesting.....

Your friend, Bill Calfee


PS: I'll be very interesting to hear Lynn's take on this new action, as he's a centerfire guy.....bc



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Been thinking:

CYA friends:

Even though CYA is about advancing rimfire accuracy, like I've said, I'm personally interested in all accuracy, even airgun, although, like centerfire, I don't have the time left in my life to devote to either.....so I'll stick to rimfire accuracy stuff....

But I still ponder things.........like this new CFBR action.

Some interesting things to ponder:

For instance as everyone knows, I firmly believe the future of rimfire accuracy actions is the momentum dependent, PAS ignitioned triple lug.

But these triple lug RFBR actions are rear lockup.

I'm not sure a front lockup, triple lug, rimfire action has the same forgiveness as a rear lockup triple lug...

Same for dual lug rear lockup vs front, or mid lockup, rimfire actions...

Likewise, I'm not sure that a front lockup centerfire triple lug action has any more forgiveness than a front lockup dual lug CF action...

But for centerfire this new dual lug, horizontal lockup CFBR action is different.

With the Remington Pattern Trigger, at least some portion of the horizontally locked up dual lugs are in contact with their locking lug seats, when the action is at battery...

To my knowledge this has never been done before.......


See CYA friends, on front lockup centerfire actions, this is the one circumstance where a dual lug, horizontal lockup would be preferable to triple lugs, and of course preferable to vertical lockup dual lugs....

A comment here:

I know nothing about the quality of this new action.........and I really know nothing other than I've read....

But, if this action is done right, nothing out of left field, like case hardening for instance, because all actions need blueprinting, there are no exceptions, and case hardening takes the schmidt's ability to create out of the picture, then it is going to be most interesting....

And finally:

The ignition of this new action?

How much you want to bet they've put a little momentum in that centerfire ignition?

This is interesting....................

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
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Something most interesting

Something most interesting

CYA friends:

Thinking about this new centerfire action......and its horizontal locking lug lockup.

"Mac" McMillan on Sept. 23rd, 1973 fired the "group heard round the world", his officially measured .009", 100 yard group. ( the range scored that group at .000", and from folks who were there that day, that I corresponded with when I wrote for Precision Shooting Magazine, seem to firmly believe the group was actually .000"...............but that isn't what's of concern here)

What is of interest here is the action Mac used to fire that group.

Now get this: The action he used was a dual lug, horizontal lockup action.......
.the action was custom made by him, I believe. (I believe he made about 50 of them total)

Isn't that most interesting.......

Your friend, Bill Calfee



Here is a page from my Precision Shooting article, August, 2007.....


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Been thinking:

CYA friends:

Even though CYA is about advancing rimfire accuracy, like I've said, I'm personally interested in all accuracy, even airgun, although, like centerfire, I don't have the time left in my life to devote to either.....so I'll stick to rimfire accuracy stuff....

But I still ponder things.........like this new CFBR action.

Some interesting things to ponder:

For instance as everyone knows, I firmly believe the future of rimfire accuracy actions is the momentum dependent, PAS ignitioned triple lug.

But these triple lug RFBR actions are rear lockup.

I'm not sure a front lockup, triple lug, rimfire action has the same forgiveness as a rear lockup triple lug...

Same for dual lug rear lockup vs front, or mid lockup, rimfire actions...

Likewise, I'm not sure that a front lockup centerfire triple lug action has any more forgiveness than a front lockup dual lug CF action...

But for centerfire this new dual lug, horizontal lockup CFBR action is different.

With the Remington Pattern Trigger, at least some portion of the horizontally locked up dual lugs are in contact with their locking lug seats, when the action is at battery...

To my knowledge this has never been done before.......


See CYA friends, on front lockup centerfire actions, this is the one circumstance where a dual lug, horizontal lockup would be preferable to triple lugs, and of course preferable to vertical lockup dual lugs....

A comment here:

I know nothing about the quality of this new action.........and I really know nothing other than I've read....

But, if this action is done right, nothing out of left field, like case hardening for instance, because all actions need blueprinting, there are no exceptions, and case hardening takes the schmidt's ability to create out of the picture, then it is going to be most interesting....

And finally:

The ignition of this new action?

How much you want to bet they've put a little momentum in that centerfire ignition?

This is interesting....................

Your friend, Bill Calfee


Howdy Bill,
It does look like an interesting action. It would seem to me that a 90 degree trigger sear would be a good thing for this action. Hope more info on the action becomes available soon.

Take care,

Greg
 
Friend 404tbang

Howdy Bill,
It does look like an interesting action. It would seem to me that a 90 degree trigger sear would be a good thing for this action. Hope more info on the action becomes available soon.

Take care,

Greg

Friend 404tbang:

Like I said, I know nothing about the quality of this CFBR action.......

But, being horizontal lockup.....................man, so many issues will be solved when using the Remington pattern trigger, which is has to use.

This is going to be fascinating to watch...........

Our CFBR friends are slow to change.....look how long they've had the complete knowledge of muzzle devices at their disposal, and save for a few, they are absolutely lost as to what a MD is used for....

It's going to be fun to sit back and watch what goes with this new action...

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
wanta bet

Been thinking:



The ignition of this new action?

How much you want to bet they've put a little momentum in that centerfire ignition?

This is interesting....................


Your friend, Bill Calfee

CYA friends:

How much you wanta bet that these folks have put some momentum dependency into this new action's ignition....?

I'll bet they've weighted the firing pin and the related spring enough to drive it...

Wanta bet.....

Your friend, BC
 
Momentum dependent ignition


CYA friends:

How much you wanta bet that these folks have put some momentum dependency into this new action's ignition....?

I'll bet they've weighted the firing pin and the related spring enough to drive it...

Wanta bet.....

Your friend, BC

Momentum dependent ignition

CYA friends:

It looks like the new CFBR action most certainly will have momentum dependent ignition....

Pretty cool.........

Your friend, BC
 
Momentum dependent ignition

CYA friends:

It looks like the new CFBR action most certainly will have momentum dependent ignition....

Pretty cool.........

Your friend, BC

Howdy Bill,
I don't know enough about centerfire ignition. I do recall reading something written by German Salazaar about centerfire ignition that indicated it can have variances and affect accuracy. Looking forward to learning more about this action.

Take care,

Greg
 
Friend 404tbang

Howdy Bill,
I don't know enough about centerfire ignition. I do recall reading something written by German Salazaar about centerfire ignition that indicated it can have variances and affect accuracy. Looking forward to learning more about this action.

Take care,

Greg


Friend 404tbang:

Centerfire ignition is not near as complicated as rimfire ignition.......

But, consistency of ignition in centerfire is most certainly important, just as in rimfire ignition.

And there's absolutely no question that momentum dependent rimfire ignition produces more consistency than spring dependent RF ignition...

Actually is isn't even close.....

The spring dependent, SAP rimfire ignition actions simply do not fair well at the big Nationals, never have.

So I suspect that this new centerfire action, with its horizontal lock-up and momentum dependent ignition, just "may" be an advancement...

Of course the school is still out.......

By the way, a buddy of mine who is into CFBR, was at the range one day shooting when I arrived to do some testing....

He called me over to show me something about the action he was using that day.....

It had a weighted firing pin added...........and he was raving about how it improved his accuracy with that particular action...

The original firing pin of this centerfire action was not weighted......the weighted version had just been added...

So I suspect there is something to it.........even in centerfire actions.......there's no question that there is in RFBR actions...

Personally, the horizontal lockup interests me more, and just may have a greater impact......

Your friend, BC
 
MrCalfee
Bill I never stray from the Rimfire benchrest forum so I missed this entire thread.
I am waiting on some factory Norma 6 Dasher brass to show up from Grizzly(Shiraz) then I will build a new rifle with all the latest technology.
On your Rimfire thread about Geoffrey what nobody from that other camp mention is why the tensioned barrelled guns shoot so well.
Those tensioned centerfire guns are in essence forcing the muzzle to STOP or atleast that is the idea behind building one.
Geoffrey and others claim we just want the muzzle pointing upward for convergence so using that logic very thin barrels should outshoot thicker barrels.
We could physically force the barrel upward with a jacking screw so it can't droop at all.
I often wonder why those very smart guys don't develop a system that forces or makes sure that the barrel is moving upward.
 
Friend Lynn

MrCalfee

Bill I never stray from the Rimfire benchrest forum so I missed this entire thread.
I am waiting on some factory Norma 6 Dasher brass to show up from Grizzly(Shiraz) then I will build a new rifle with all the latest technology.

Friend Lynn:

On another thread I've been discussing the Remington pattern trigger, and where we might be now in the search for accuracy if over the last 60 years we would have developed a vertical interface trigger system, instead of the Remington pattern, angled engagement system...

What if we'd spent all that money we have over these last 60 years on a vertical interface trigger instead of the Remington? Man, no telling how much further we would be in advancing accuracy....


_____________________________



Just like this new horizontal lock-up Centerfire action.....

You know Lynn, it took over 40 years for the McMillan .009" world record produced by a horizontal lock-up action with a vertical interface trigger to be broken by the vertical lock-up, Remington pattern triggered guns that have been used these last 40 plus years.

Can you imagine the tens of thousands of groups, it took, fired by vertical lock-up actions with Remington pattern triggers over the last 40 years to break the McMillan record......

What if, back in 1973, we would have continued development of horizontal lock-up centerfire actions, instead of vertical lock-up actions?

Can you imagine where we might be today, with centerfire accuracy advancement, if the world would have spent all of the development time and money on horizontal lock-up actions, instead of vertical lock-up actions................man!


Well, we now have an action maker investing in horizontal lock-up, centerfire actions....

Man this is citing......actually the most citing thing to happen in centerfire benchrest actions in the last 40 years.....


Your friend, Bill Calfee


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Friend Lynn

Friend Lynn

Friend Lynn:

I got to thinking about the 1973 McMillan .009" world record group and decided I'd try to post my Precision Shooting article about that group and the equipment that was used......

By the way, this article is not in my book.......

Anyway, if the McMillan group would have been turned with a vertical lock-up action and Remington pattern trigger, which was being used back then, just as today, it wouldn't be quite so special....

But the fact is, that world record .009" group was turned with a vertical interface trigger and a horizontal lock-up action.....

And now it's taken over 40 years for someone with a vertical lock-up action using a Remington pattern trigger to break it......

40 years that record stood........


I'm going to say this again; "can you imagine where we would we be in centerfire accuracy today, if the world would have went the horizontal lock-up action route and also developed a vertical interface trigger?"

Even just the horizontal lock-up action with the Remington pattern trigger would be most interesting...

Well someone is finally, after 40 years, doing just that.......

__________________________________


Lynn, if I can figure out how to do it, I'm going to post my Precision Shooting article titled "The Group" here on CYA.

In writing that article I got to correspond with several folks who were at that match in 1973, plus folks who knew the details of the McMillan gun.

Most fascinating experience.......

By the way, there's folks today who don't believe that group was real........

And there's folks who were actually there watching through scopes who witnessed the group and vouch that it did happen...so did the moving backer...

But here's a most interesting thing about that group:

The range measured it .000".........yes, .000"

One gentleman that I talked to said they cross measured the group against single bullet holes and no one who witnessed it could distinguish the diameter of the group to be any larger than a single bullet hole....

Another gentleman said he was shocked when it was officially measured at .009"...( actually more than one stated their shock at the .009" measurement)

They all maintain, to this day, that the group actually measured .000"...........

There's more to this most interesting story...

I'll post my article as soon as I figure a good way to do it....

Your friend, Bill Calfee



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