How much we have got better accuracy to rimfire during the decades?

T

Timo

Member
I have asked this question before and it is not easy to answer because this "ammo from hell" quality and accuracy (also brands) has been changing during the decades.

Why this question again?

My neighbour has been succesful prone shooter.Same man who always has been polite to me when I was younger and show him 5 or 10 shot groups.He always teached me that never trust <30 shot groups on batch tests with 22 LR ammo.

He is now about 70 years old.Retired now and make his career machine engineer.His character is perfectionist.Never pleased to accuracy.

Shooting now with nowadays prone RF on competitions,but he has also old original Diana prone RF in his gun safe.

Diana is with its original style. Barrel is original,shooted not very much rounds and what many hates, barrel is not threaded but it is with "tin" like Diana made those 40-50 years ago.

Talked just with him and he has shooted 50 shot group with this Diana prone 22 LR rifle with nowadays good lot to 50 meter from linear quided test bench. Result excact 14 mm (0,551") outside to outside measured.

I dont know what kind of groups nowadays best RF.s can make with 50 shot,but to me this is amazing with RF without tuner and barrel is without threads.

I said to him that if he find time late this autumn or winter maybe can we go to our inside range and I like to shoot few I.R.50/50 targets with this Diana.

And again must ask: How much we have got better accuracy to rimfire during the decades?

BR, Timo
 
Prone shooting is quite different from BR, of course.

Looking at that 14mm 50 shot group gave me to think and make some maths...

I have picked my last 30 shot group of 13.80mm on Meyke Electronic software and gave and average ISSF scoring of 10.64. This related to a final final of 638.4. Corrected to 60 shot 637.2.
Picking a 14mm 50 shot group corrected to 60 shot group gave 635.9.
However the World Record (shoot in 2015) is 633.0.

So the question surfs... was that group shot prone or bench? Because if shot prone, it means that rifle, and on top of that, your friend, is able to beat the WR by ~3 points.

I think for the op shooters and top gear, the increase has not been much, but accessibility of great gear is much better nowadays, so, where we do see a huge performance increase is in the middle pack.
 
PedroS said:
Prone shooting is quite different from BR, of course.

Looking at that 14mm 50 shot group gave me to think and make some maths...

I have picked my last 30 shot group of 13.80mm on Meyke Electronic software and gave and average ISSF scoring of 10.64. This related to a final final of 638.4. Corrected to 60 shot 637.2.
Picking a 14mm 50 shot group corrected to 60 shot group gave 635.9.
However the World Record (shoot in 2015) is 633.0.

So the question surfs... was that group shot prone or bench? Because if shot prone, it means that rifle, and on top of that, your friend, is able to beat the WR by ~3 points.

I think for the op shooters and top gear, the increase has not been much, but accessibility of great gear is much better nowadays, so, where we do see a huge performance increase is in the middle pack.
Click to expand...
Yes, the improvements in the equipment over the last 10 or so years has had the effect of bring up shooters to the point anyone can win. There is no where you can go and just expect to win. You can't out equip the field anymore. My newest favorite saying is "sometimes you just have to outshoot the bast***s.

Back in the old days you would see about every kind of contraption you could think of on the line at our national matches.

Most of that equipment was one off and made by the guy shooting it. May have been the only one like it he/she ever built.

But today you walk down the line, and all the equipment basically looks alike. Made professionally by a very small number of companies or individuals.

TKH
 
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I have been very intrested about history of 22 LR ammo made here in Finland (Lapua) and also this excellent one Olimp R from Russian.
Priming and everything what I can find knowledge around those.

Same time interviewed old prone shooters who has been on the top on different decades.About ammo,batch tests etc.

Wrote someday "Time machine":

Time machine

Lets take time machine and go about 80-90 years back.I got just drawing of VKT31 action from year 1931.This was "seed" to later Valmet actions. VKT= Governments Rifle Factory in english. This (or VKT35) was the action what Mr Toivo Mänttäri used on 1939 Luzern (Swiss) World Champions and...
wwaccuracy.com

I know many RFBR shooters are thinking that prone shooters can give nothing to RFBR game.
I can write only our small country story.

But during decades top prone shooters have been looking very near same standards to accuracy what satisfied also RFBR shooter.(Also today).Most of those guys has had their own or shooting clubs test benches and 2 of those time top prone shooters has said that they dont go to 60 shot "lay prone" competitions with ammo lot what gives >13 mm 30 shot groups to 50 meter from test bench.

They were their times "unlimited class BR group shooters" with their HIGH quality test benches.

Lapua 22 LR ammo made here in Finland was very high level.But priming method was little dangerous and triccky.Also VERY tight quality control made lot of "reject" and rise up production costs to "first class" brands going to market.

One intresting detail rise up from old "prone dogs". They said that barrels accuracy goes little down when barrel steel companies goes off from "pure steel" and they begun to use "recycling steel" here in European?.

60 shot "lay prone" is not anymore Olympic event and on "golden days" there was 130-150 shooters in our Nationals (men event) ,nowadays few tens and mostly over 60 year old guys.

On those prone "golden days" there was also asking to high quality RF smiths and there has been also lot of high quality accuracy machinists making gun works without any gunsmith licence-:).

Our RFBR Nationals here is now only about 10-15 shooters. Very small community.

Must I chance my question? Is nowadays RF technique and accuracy gone better as much as 22 LR ammo accuracy has gone lower????

BR, Timo
 
Friend gun fool Timo

To answer your question:

Must I chance my question? Is nowadays RF technique and accuracy gone better as much as 22 LR ammo accuracy has gone lower????
BR, Timo


Friend Timo, I believe it's a combination of both....

NOW......I have a question for you, or Pedro or TKH or anyone else who would care to answer:


What is the single greatest contributor to increasing rimfire accuracy in the history of rimfire accuracy shooting?


This single contributing factor has increased rimfire accuracy more than any other facet of rimfire accuracy development.

What is this single greatest contributing factor?


Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
 
Bill Calfee said:
Friend gun fool Timo

To answer your question:

Must I chance my question? Is nowadays RF technique and accuracy gone better as much as 22 LR ammo accuracy has gone lower????
BR, Timo


Friend Timo, I believe it's a combination of both....

NOW......I have a question for you, or Pedro or TKH or anyone else who would care to answer:


What is the single greatest contributor to increasing rimfire accuracy in the history of rimfire accuracy shooting?


This single contributing factor has increased rimfire accuracy more than any other facet of rimfire accuracy development.

What is this single greatest contributing factor?


Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
Click to expand...
You guys pose some very hard questions. I'm sure if 100 people responded you would get nearly 100 different answers.

First, I would like to state one thing about rimfire shooting. Anything can and does happen in this sport.

Some of those things are unbelievable.

To make this point I'll tell a story I've told before.

The very first PSL 2500 target ever shot was shot by a shooter that had never attended a PSL match, with a rifle he had never shot in competition.

This happened in the "The Barn" in North Carolina. He bought the used rifle the day before the match. Used ammo he had bought for another rifle he had planned to shoot. At the last minute he decided to shoot the new rifle instead.

When he shot that 2500 everyone was shocked. It was later learned the scope on the rifle had a broken crosshair that was laying in the bottom of the tube. Even with all of this he was able to produce that 2500. He is a great guy and a good shooter, but he has not produced another 2500 since.

The point I'm making is onetime performances don't really mean much in rimfire because anything can happen.

If we are looking for a single development in the contraptions, we shoot I would not be able to give a clear answer. There are so many factors involved.

But if pressed I'm going to say it is in the skills of the RFBR gunsmiths building these rifles. Nearly every rifle on the line today has the same components but can perform very different from one another.

I sight as example the Calfee built rifles. Not trying to flatter you Bill but just look at the history of your rifles and the rifles of other smiths that have used your techniques to build rifles. I'm not going to list all the names but there is quite a list.

Getting back to the ammo thing. I can't provide a good answer to that one either. No shooter or rifle can overcome inconsistent ammo. Lord knows we have all tried.

It is a popular belief that we are now on the leading edge of RFBR accuracy. High scores and aggs. being shot of a fairly regular basis leads one to believe that. But at the same time most shooters today will tell you the ammo is not as good as it once was or as easy to find. These are contradicting statements.

Lord what I would give for a few cases of Russian Olimp-R or Gold box Lapua made in Finland.

TKH
 
Tony K Harper said:
First, I would like to state one thing about rimfire shooting. Anything can and does happen in this sport.
Click to expand...

So true.
And majority of people don't realise that...

We are developing the best we can the gear, gunsmiths skills, you name it, but still use an ammo born 136 years ago, when an American firearms manufacturer, J. Stevens Arms & Tool Company, introduced the .22 Long Rifle cartridge in 1887.

So what?
The truth is we try our best to do everything perfect for an imperfect ammo. Wishing that imperfect bullet to hit the dot. Them we do groups, 30 shots of imperfect bullets in a bucket and we are satisfied, should I say happy? And then, the other day all is upside down.

And people say, BR is easy... if they knew half of the days of yore...

I bow for those gunsmiths that can produce the wonders we shoot with.

For me, the most important piece in advancing accuracy are those persons that do their work with lathes and mills, producing the rifles we have today. For us, shooters, is just to cope with the wind, and day uncertainties, to hit that dot.
However, to be on the top, is also a persistence attitude, knowledge, desire, analysis, stamina and mental preparation.

So I trow my 3 most important points to develop accuracy (in ascending order):
1. Gear
2. Shooter
3. Gunsmith
 
Bill asked : What is the single greatest contributor to increasing rimfire accuracy in the history of rimfire accuracy shooting?

I quess Bill is thinking PAS ignition or maybe tuner.

TKH wrote : Lord what I would give for a few cases of Russian Olimp-R or Gold box Lapua made in Finland.

I am now joking little (but only little).

If we can give to Bill best old Olimp-R ammo made in Klimovsk I think SAP ignition change suddenly to PAS on his shooting bench and he can sell tuner off.

But this is fallen milk and we must go on what we have nowadays.

BR,

Timo

Ps.Wrote many times what happens mens lay prone 60 shot + final on London Olympics 2012. Mr Martynov won gold with new world record.
I noticed that he used old Annie and on year 1985 made Olimp-R ammo.He was shooting against new RF.s and new ammo what his competitors used.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTsPFmEyLPQ

Ps2. It should be good one to get more knowledge/ visibility to RFBR game making videos with scope camera and same time viewers (spectators) can see flags positions.Also when shooter is going to sighters and also this that shooter is taking care about wind drifting and how wind put hole different place where dot or cross hair shows.Havent seen any where those ALL aspects can see at same time.
 
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